LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bi & Transgender) MITM Fans

yardgames

Retired Administrator
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

It is a controversial position on a controversial topic, though. It seems to contradict itself. Maybe you can, in a humane and non-angry way, elaborate on your thoughts?
 

tony_montana

Semper Fidelis
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

@Yardgames-Yes, I will elaborate IF I can speak freely without anyone taking rep points away from me because they are "offended" by what I believe or anyone ganging on me and harrasing me.
Yes, I don't care what people do personally. Want to be gay/lesbian? Fine. I just don't support it myself AND I don't support the marriage between gays. The reason for that is I myself believe in our almighty God who made marriage a sacred, holy thing between two people, that being a man and a woman. Marriage to me isn't just something that says two people are married. It's a gift from God. That being said, I don't support gay marriage because God Himself says, in the Bible, that gay activity of that kind is an abomination to Him.
So that's about it. Be gay if you want, but I don't support gay marriage. And once again, Ill state that I support prez.Bush's campaign to ban gay marriage. Do I hate gay people? Not at all. Like I stated in my other post in this thread, one of my favorite rock singers was Freddie Mercury(who was gay, by my understanding), and a friend of mine at school is gay.
Anyways, that's what I believe and Im sticking to it.
 

Kratos

New member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

tony_montana said:
@Yardgames-Yes, I will elaborate IF I can speak freely without anyone taking rep points away from me because they are "offended" by what I believe or anyone ganging on me and harrasing me.
Yes, I don't care what people do personally. Want to be gay/lesbian? Fine. I just don't support it myself AND I don't support the marriage between gays. The reason for that is I myself believe in our almighty God who made marriage a sacred, holy thing between two people, that being a man and a woman. Marriage to me isn't just something that says two people are married. It's a gift from God. That being said, I don't support gay marriage because God Himself says, in the Bible, that gay activity of that kind is an abomination to Him.
So that's about it. Be gay if you want, but I don't support gay marriage. And once again, Ill state that I support prez.Bush's campaign to ban gay marriage. Do I hate gay people? Not at all. Like I stated in my other post in this thread, one of my favorite rock singers was Freddie Mercury(who was gay, by my understanding), and a friend of mine at school is gay.
Anyways, that's what I believe and Im sticking to it.

This for me is the worst kinda of homophobic response, that self conceited hate for gays under the pretence of “liking” them :mad: ; “I don’t mind black people as long as they don’t serve me in shops or get into positions of political power and of course don’t have the same rights as us white folks”. You can coat it up anyway you want but that’s the bottom line (or at least how I’m viewing your posts).

Its already been pointed out that the ability to marry gives the couple basic rights; to act as next of kin, tax reduction etc, if marriage was purely a commitment then I might not be so pissed off about this, it’s the fact you are “rewarded” for being married, something which is denied to all gay couples by bigots. And yes you are a bigot before you object, the Bible says a lot of stuff, and I doubt you follow it all to the latter.

I can’t stand inequality of any kind, and just because you have a higher post count than me doesn’t give you the right to tell me to “screw off”, and you cant “be gay if you want” you don’t chose it, unlike the religion you are forcing on people who might not share your faith and thus not want to be constricted by it. You want to suppress people and hurt those who are just being themselves in the name of god, disgusting.
 

NeCoHo

Retired Mod
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Everyone here has their own opinion, just like everyone can disagree with someone else's opinion. Just a reminder.
 

tjpeople

Site Administrator
Staff member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

http://godhatesshrimp.com/

All that needs to be said.

 
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

I think one of the main problems is the interchangeable nature of the terms marriage and wedding/ wed. Marriage refers to the civil liberties and rights and the recognition of a couple in the eyes of the law having evolved from the religious term. The term wedding or to 'wed' someone or alternatively a marriage of 'holy matromony' refers to the religous arena. Therefore Tony (I don't want it to seem like anyones ganging up on you, I happen to disagree but it's the same way that I disagree with those who say Lost is a clever program :D) I think you're possibly true in saying that gay people cannot have a wedding, however, I personally feel they should be able to marry- as this is political rather than religious.

I've separated my next point as it's possibly more controversial than previous comment (so please feel free to mod. it). If everything in the bible is interperated in its literal sense then surely you would in fact be somewhat xenephobic and against those of different religions and cultures? I personally am agnostic (I suppose Malcolm in fact says it best in 'malcolm dates a family'- 'I'm a hopeful agnostic' but I guess this is a kind of selfish religious belief. Finally, on a more frivillous note, if you're an atheist, how are you sworn in when testifying in a court of law?
 

Alfista Junior

New member
Kratos said:
This for me is the worst kinda of homophobic response, that self conceited hate for gays under the pretence of “liking” them :mad: ; “I don’t mind black people as long as they don’t serve me in shops or get into positions of political power and of course don’t have the same rights as us white folks”. You can coat it up anyway you want but that’s the bottom line (or at least how I’m viewing your posts).

Its already been pointed out that the ability to marry gives the couple basic rights; to act as next of kin, tax reduction etc, if marriage was purely a commitment then I might not be so pissed off about this, it’s the fact you are “rewarded” for being married, something which is denied to all gay couples by bigots. And yes you are a bigot before you object, the Bible says a lot of stuff, and I doubt you follow it all to the latter.

I can’t stand inequality of any kind, and just because you have a higher post count than me doesn’t give you the right to tell me to “screw off”, and you cant “be gay if you want” you don’t chose it, unlike the religion you are forcing on people who might not share your faith and thus not want to be constricted by it. You want to suppress people and hurt those who are just being themselves in the name of god, disgusting.
Speaking in the name of God is a way to follow morals you had not to set up formerly. But everyone follows guidelines looking for what is good or not, and either they build them themselves or accept other. So either churchgoers think these preconceived ideas are perfect or they think the authority of God is inescapable whatever they could have think. The second situation is even worse because they declare themselves irresponsible of what they do or think or see.. Tony kinda said "God told me the gay thing was wrong but also to love each other."

If you disagree you can break dogmas. If you accept it you're responsible. Come on. In my country the Church is really conservative more than everywhere on earth. About 50 years ago most of people were churchgoers. My parents generation began to put that in question and my generation is almost non believer. Nowadays less than 10% of the population are churchgoers. Grandma Powarr :D. The main issue is that firstly Religion is a way to feel better and to feel supported by others. But, in my country nothing has changed for decades. For example priests can't be married. We know that they have sex all the same. Most of them have gay relationships (probably the situation in jail is similar when you're cut from the opposite sex) and condemn it though. That's fun, some have kids too. And other thing, don't ask either why most of parents don't accept anymore to leave the priests with their kids... The point of no return was the time when they told our parents that condoms should be banned and that dying with Aids was just a fair consequence of betraying god in having sex before marriage. Is that respectful of life? I mean each life?

So, to my mind, religion is nowadays incapable to respond to real issues (since we have the right to express ourselves totally of course) because it's self centered.

His response wasn't homophobic, it was an intolerant answer which would like to look like a toterant answer. I'm convinced that's the way each religion is today. Look I'm a non believer. What I said will be considered as unrespectful, because I say the concept of god doesn't exit instead of saying God exists but I don't see it.. Can you tell me why saying that god doesn't exist is more offending that saying he exists? And what is funny is that believers will think such a post should be withdrawn and it will be withdrawn for the good of the all community.. That's funny, isn't it?

For me Relgion stands for fake values but "each other" is nearer to the concept of "me" than to "the different guy".

I'm a non believer but I received a catholic education when I was a kid, because it was still common 20 years ago. And I decided myself to abandon it at 12. Being a non believer doesn't prevent me from knowing a lot of stuffs about religions and its consequences because religion is a part of the culture each country has. So please don't tell me I'm narrow minded, I had to "build" me myself.

Last time I spoke about religon my post was withdrawn. I speak honestly whithout being irrespectful. It's just my opinion. But if someone want to withdraw my Rep Points, I hope he'll at least write his name this time... fraidy-cat. I'm honest, so be honest too.



Back to the actual topic, I'd like to ask Kratos to tell me why the gay marriage is so important to him. You know, maybe it's me, but I think: If I were gay, I won't give a damn about marriage. By the way I'm straight and I don't. I'd just like to have fair rights and to live in peace. It's just a question, because it's not easy to understand everything.

You said you wanted marriage to allow gay couples to feel identical. Don't you think the marriage should be the next step after the true tolerance? Or don't you think the concept of marriage has been conceived by straight and is for straight? Don't you think gays should celebrate their union the way they want, and maybe differently...

As I said before, a important part of the gay couples over here think the marriage is not for us. They prefer fighting for tolerance because they think imposing gay marriage could much more threaten the acceptation and tolerance people have regarding them. When you see demonstrators in the US with their signs "One man One woman" you could realize it leads to a come back of extremist thoughts...

I'd like we have a deeper talk. Not only it's good it's bad.. We're not here for that. We're here to understand each other and to share ideas..

Deweyrules! said:
I think one of the main problems is the interchangeable nature of the terms marriage and wedding/ wed. Marriage refers to the civil liberties and rights and the recognition of a couple in the eyes of the law having evolved from the religious term. The term wedding or to 'wed' someone or alternatively a marriage of 'holy matromony' refers to the religous arena. Therefore Tony (I don't want it to seem like anyones ganging up on you, I happen to disagree but it's the same way that I disagree with those who say Lost is a clever program :D) I think you're possibly true in saying that gay people cannot have a wedding, however, I personally feel they should be able to marry- as this is political rather than religious.

I've separated my next point as it's possibly more controversial than previous comment (so please feel free to mod. it). If everything in the bible is interperated in its literal sense then surely you would in fact be somewhat xenephobic and against those of different religions and cultures? I personally am agnostic (I suppose Malcolm in fact says it best in 'malcolm dates a family'- 'I'm a hopeful agnostic' but I guess this is a kind of selfish religious belief. Finally, on a more frivillous note, if you're an atheist, how are you sworn in when testifying in a court of law?
Wow, so well said. I agree with each word you wrote. But I don't understand why a moderator could feel the need to mod it...
 
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

I know we're going away from TJ's intial intentions, but when you look at the frequent posters on this forum, everyone seems to be intelligent, thus they have very strong, generally well informed views, so debate and discussion on a wider level is inevitable.

I agree Alfista, religion is possibly the most controversial topic of them all, I think in recent years it has almost become taboo, but I think it's unfair to say Tony's response was intolerant, I think religion is a major influence on peoples thoughts and oppinions. Whether the values people hold seem anacronistic in today's society or not, it's evident that Tony is tolerant of peoples personal preferences and wants, so in turn we should also be tolerant of his- whether or not we agree with them.

The main reasoning behind gay marriage is the civil liberties that should be equal, which I think is right- although I wouldn't say I think everyone should be equal (but I'll explain that in a politics thread :D).

Finally (if you've actually continued to read :D) I don't think anyone should remove the rep points thing, just for a difference in oppinion, or a seemingly offensive post (it might just be a matter of misinterpretation) you may as well just respond to the post with your oppinion.
 

Alfista Junior

New member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Deweyrules! said:
I know we're going away from TJ's intial intentions, but when you look at the frequent posters on this forum, everyone seems to be intelligent, thus they have very strong, generally well informed views, so debate and discussion on a wider level is inevitable.

I agree Alfista, religion is possibly the most controversial topic of them all, I think in recent years it has almost become taboo, but I think it's unfair to say Tony's response was intolerant, I think religion is a major influence on peoples thoughts and oppinions. Whether the values people hold seem anacronistic in today's society or not, it's evident that Tony is tolerant of peoples personal preferences and wants, so in turn we should also be tolerant of his- whether or not we agree with them.

The main reasoning behind gay marriage is the civil liberties that should be equal, which I think is right- although I wouldn't say I think everyone should be equal (but I'll explain that in a politics thread :D).

Finally (if you've actually continued to read :D) I don't think anyone should remove the rep points thing, just for a difference in oppinion, or a seemingly offensive post (it might just be a matter of misinterpretation) you may as well just respond to the post with your oppinion.

Yep, but this taboo is a one way street. I'm like Kratos, it's not because you say "You're gay but I won't kill you" that you're tolerant...It's too easy.. Sorry but I maintain what I've said.
 
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Good, you absolutely should maintain your beliefs. I don't think you should change your values and beliefs jsut becuase I said I disagree, otherwise I'd be a complete hypocrite :)
 

Alfista Junior

New member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Deweyrules! said:
Good, you absolutely should maintain your beliefs. I don't think you should change your values and beliefs jsut becuase I said I disagree, otherwise I'd be a complete hypocrite :)

But talking is also a way to realize you may be wrong (or the contrary). That's why when someone explains me why he desagree with me I read carefully his arguments... ;) You used the word "belief" (maybe on purpose by the way). I would say "ideas" or "points of view", because beliefs are too immobile to be honest...
 
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

You appear to be fairly strong in your point of view on religion, as most people are so I thought it kind of warranted 'belief'. I agree points of view can be altered, but beliefs cannot... generally
 

yardgames

Retired Administrator
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

This forum has always had its extremely touchy points and I had a feeling when it was started that this thread was going to end up being one of them. It's very difficult for one person to express their personal beliefs without insulting another person, but part of that process comes from each person accepting that others will have views different from their own. I thank each one of you for stating your opinion in such a logical and respectful way and hope that each one of you realizes no one is out to bash anyone else's personal belief system. In addition to the touchy issues that this forum can never seem to agree on, there are always some things that we can always agree on and one of those (apart from that we all love MITM) is that we're all generally very accepting. I beg that as you continue this thread, please keep that in mind and be accepting of others. State your opinions, but take caution when rebuttling others. I once closed a religion thread that Tony had begun because it was not appropriate for this forum; with all due process, this thread is now bordering on that same territory. If anyone is offended, please PM me and I will close it immediately. As it is, I will allow the discussion to continue for now.
 

tony_montana

Semper Fidelis
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Yeah, this is my last post in this thread.
I hold very strong to my beliefs, because to me they are a part of my life. It is my faith and that won't change. With that said, Im not posting anything else in this thread because I don't want to start fighting with anyone here. I view each of you as my friend(wether you really are or not:rolleyes: ), and I don't want that to be severed by arguing in a place where we should be brought together by our love for MITM. I apologize to you Kratos, for saying "screw off" earlier. That wasn't needed on my part.
Anyways, I have said all I wanted to say here, Im not fighting or arguing anymore, so for this thread, consider me gone.:)
 

tjpeople

Site Administrator
Staff member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Wow, contravertial people leaving this thread? :D

Im not gunna be elaberate, ive posted on some religious thread here before. My views are that i dont like religion in general, the problems it cause etc etc. I would never be directly disrespectful of a religion.

As far as marriage goes its simple in my opinion everyone should be able to marry in LAW. So you get all the legal stuff. And in the UK thats what we have. Wether you call its marriage or civil partnership or whatever.

Thats all fine if you are athiest. For me I could never join an organsisation that was oppossed to know i am. Thats why i would never be a christian, regardless of how you inturpet the bible a large majority of the people in christianity are opposed to me. So when it comes to marriage I say, if you want to have a gay marriage join a church that surpports and allows it, you are not forced to be with one church or the other so choose. For that reason i dont think anyone should be forced to have gay marriages in there chruch, its a club, if you dont like the rules leave.

I hate homophobia of any sort, so i surpport people who are gay in their religion, if your gay your gay, and i dont think you shoudl be discriminated againt for it. However on marriage you have the option to get married, so you have the option to change church.
 
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

I think so long as everyone has morals engraned into them at a young age, as most do then that's all we need. Religion after all is a set of morals and rules. Society has simply adpated them to suit modern, more accepting way of life- it's a natural progression. Now that we have a new code of ethics and values, to many religion has become redundant, which I feel explains the apparant decline in religion (particuarly amongst those in our age group) in recent decades.
 

tjpeople

Site Administrator
Staff member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Deweyrules! said:
I think so long as everyone has morals engraned into them at a young age, as most do then that's all we need. Religion after all is a set of morals and rules. Society has simply adpated them to suit modern, more accepting way of life- it's a natural progression. Now that we have a new code of ethics and values, to many religion has become redundant, which I feel explains the apparant decline in religion (particuarly amongst those in our age group) in recent decades.

Its on the decline in some ways hwoever there is a grwoing revilatist movement in america mainly from the young.
 

Kratos

New member
Re: LGBT MITM Fans

Alfista Junior said:
Back to the actual topic, I'd like to ask Kratos to tell me why the gay marriage is so important to him. You know, maybe it's me, but I think: If I were gay, I won't give a damn about marriage. By the way I'm straight and I don't. I'd just like to have fair rights and to live in peace. It's just a question, because it's not easy to understand everything.

You said you wanted marriage to allow gay couples to feel identical. Don't you think the marriage should be the next step after the true tolerance? Or don't you think the concept of marriage has been conceived by straight and is for straight? Don't you think gays should celebrate their union the way they want, and maybe differently...

As I said before, a important part of the gay couples over here think the marriage is not for us. They prefer fighting for tolerance because they think imposing gay marriage could much more threaten the acceptation and tolerance people have regarding them. When you see demonstrators in the US with their signs "One man One woman" you could realize it leads to a come back of extremist thoughts...


I don’t really have a strong desire to make marriage (within a religious context) of any kind, legal lol, like I said before I don’t like inequality being presented as some form of political positive in order to gain votes, Bush says gay “marriage” and abortion is wrong and he gets just over half of America voting for him. It’s the case of mixing a religious faith with the running of an entire country, who are highly unlikely to all belong to the same Christian religion. :confused:

Basically I don’t give a rat’s arse about marriage, just the option and choice to have the same rights that “straight” people can (almost) take for granted and in turn make different sexualities "Equal". It works on other levels, i.e. gay couples constricted as to when they can be themselves, holding hands kissing in public etc. It wouldn’t be a very big issue, if I saw two gay men/women walking down the street it’s got nothing to do with me :p , nor is it likely to effect me any more than if it were a straight couple, thus back to the first point and back to Alfista’s question, denying something for some that’s acceptable for others makes it look “wrong”, I don’t like a faith attempting to criminalize an expression of love, that’s legal and consenting. :(


(I’ve had fun reading this thread :) and have listened to “both” sides, but still feel the rights and enjoyment people can have in actual life is better, or more of an important priority than an almost leisurely belief in a faith)
 
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