Do you take in interest in your countries politics?

[NeCoHo]

tony- to get things done, to put America back to the way it was, and the way it should be, I would need more then 8 years. Let's face it: America is very, VERY, screwed up, and it would take at least a decade to get it back togeather again. breaking a few rules to get the job done the way it's supposed to be done? And besides, whay would a trusted advisor try to stage a coup, tony?

 

[NeCoHo]

Re: Post your Pics! (Split from House Location Thread)

thanks, good ol' friend of mine (must I add a sarcasism note to this, or do you get that?)

EDITED

oh, by the way, I'll add these last few comments to the politics thread.

 

[Deweyrules!]

Re: Post your Pics! (Split from House Location Thread)

I'm a joke to you, I'm a joke to everyone, I won't be, not in a few years I won't... Believe me. I will do this. Change is coming, will you catch the wave, or will you drown? (yes, I know you're in the UK, but I need to get the point across...)

What's that J.? Rhetoric reminiscent of Hitler, it's all become so clear, the forums are a place for you to spread your Fascist intentions, I look forward to your five point plan. (sarcasm once again, although it appears that we should in fact note when we're not being sarcastic based on previous posts). Also, you couldn't do a much worse job than Tony Blair at the moment!!

 

[NeCoHo]

Re: Post your Pics! (Split from House Location Thread)

This has gone too far. When things go from friendly debate to political bashing, it has gone too far. I am considering closing this for the sake of forum unity. The last thing we need is a rift in the forums.

 

[yardgames]

Re: Post your Pics! (Split from House Location Thread)

Good idea, let's get back to posting our pictures in this thread. I was actually going to split the whole political thing off, but people had said stuff about the political part of the thread and the pic part of the thread in the same post and I was too lazy to split the individual posts before I split the thread.

 

[NeCoHo]

Re: Post your Pics! (Split from House Location Thread)

I know how you feel Sam, too lazy to fix something you knew how to.

 

[Wildcat]

This is the political thread, not the pictures thread, but I think some political stuff got posted in the pics thread earlier. I don't know, I'm tired and confused. Just a little reminder for everyone--It's great to debate and share your views on the topic, but politics can be a touchy subject so lets keep the posts objective and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 

[Deweyrules!]

I appologise, I was doing it all in jest no offence was intended, I assumed J. understood that I was trying to be ironic and make a point about the prominance of many Fascist themes in current politics. Sorry if it was viewed as innapropriate, I'm sure you'll make a great President/ Emporer.

 

[NeCoHo]

Thanks. I think the problem was we both started laying out too much sarcasm, and it just got to a point where it got really nasty. I'm sorry too, maybe we can continue this, in a little less sarcastic and rhetorical way.

 

[Deweyrules!]

The sarcasm wasn't meant offensively by the way, but I do agree. If we go back to pre-Hitler discussions, what do you think is the main failing of the US system. As I've said a number of times before, my knowledge of the US system is very patchy, I am aware you are a federal state, as opposed to a unitary one (i.e. UK) and you therefore have an elected second chamber (senate) and your president appears to be a dumbass.

 

[NeCoHo]

basically, you're right. It's a bicameral legislature in the US. Our president seems to forget that the US isn't the only county with nukes too. You can't just act alone (or nearly alone) in a situation like Iraq, or anything else. Did you know that the Iraq/Afghanistan War (apart from Vietnam) was the only war in which America acted without first being provoked militarily. They attacked civilians, and civilians working in the Pentagon, thy did not strike a carrier, or a military base, they killed civilians. WWII: Pearl Harbor, WWI: The Merchant Marines, Span-USA war: The USS Maine, just to name a few. I said it before, I'll say it again, America needs it's allies in the future, allies who eye-to-eye on almost every subject, not allies who pick and choose their agreements and disagreements (I know it's nearly impossible to do this, but we need something at least close to it) Everything the Allies did in WWII, they did together. And they won. It's really that simple. I can't wait till 2008, we'll get someone new in to hopefully attempt to fix the US up again. Either way, I still see it as an archaic, corrupt sham of Westernism that needs fixing, big-time.

 

[Deweyrules!]

To be honest, I think it's going to take a fairly major event to unite US with many of its past allies. Speaking from a solely British perspective, the unofficial, non-governmental consensus is a lack of faith in the country, its cited as a super power and therefore a necessary allie, however many of the Britsih people have become somewhat dissallusioned with a country lead by Bush and in some case even confused by a country that actually chooses Bush. There is an overall anti-Iraq war stance in the UK, with just a minority supporting the actions taken, particuarly when one considers the illegality of the war and the aftermath. The US's stance on the environment, now viewed by many as the single most important issue has also created some problems, with the refusal to sign the Kyoto agreement and what has often been interperted as a disregard.

The views I'm expressing here aren't necessarily my own, I'm just trying to convey general views often found in British press and discussions. I think what you say is true J. all countries need their allies, particuarly with the so called 'war on terror', but is it not just fuelling a conflict between the west and the east by creating allies amongst the MEDC western countries. I'm sure we'll soon see.

 

[yardgames]

The sarcasm wasn't meant offensively by the way, but I do agree. If we go back to pre-Hitler discussions, what do you think is the main failing of the US system. As I've said a number of times before, my knowledge of the US system is very patchy, I am aware you are a federal state, as opposed to a unitary one (i.e. UK) and you therefore have an elected second chamber (senate) and your president appears to be a dumbass.

Our dumbass President is the commander-in-chief of the army that captured Al-Zarquowi.

 

[NeCoHo]

The war could have been solved in a few weeks, had we inserted CIA/Delta Force Operatives who could have positined themselves to take out the high ranking officers/polititians, then let the country break into civil war, and then ally with the victor of the civil war. The government is hiding lots of stuff about this war, and you can't deny it. dozens of "near-misses" mean the way of doing thinhgs now is archaic and obsolete. Our entire Armed forces should be converted into somethig that I am working out as we speak, I'll have something in a day or so (maybe less)

 

[tony_montana]

@J-Whilst I agree with you on the fact we should have sent in special forces teams to quickly take out the top terrorists/enemy politicians, I don't agree about letting the country slip into civil war. Every innocent human life is valuable, and I don't think we should let a civil war break out where civilians suffer until it's over.

On another note, our military finally killed Osama Bin Laden's right hand man, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, early Wenesday by bombing a building he was staying in. That's the good news.
The bad news is, along with him, the bombs also killed a woman and child, which is very unfortunate and, to me, puts a damper on the fact we got one of the terrorists.

 

[Deweyrules!]

@J-Whilst I agree with you on the fact we should have sent in special forces teams to quickly take out the top terrorists/enemy politicians.

I don't want to ignite any paticular anger just to make a couple of points, firstly, the president of the US may be the commander in chief of your army, the 80 year old queen is the head of our army and government, it does not mean that they are responsible for every victory or failing.

Secondly, surely it's slightly hypocritical to claim you are a fair and the most democratic country, when you advocate the effective murder of enemy politicans and supposed terrorists, surely they have a right to a fair trial. This is a topic of much controversy in the UK at the moment, as to whether the CIA have been transporting terrorist held by the united states to places where torture (as defined by British legislation rather than American, we have tougher laws with reference to torture)can be carried out, via British airspace, there is then the matter of Guantanemo Bay, but I feel that topic is far too controversial and perhaps we should begin to move away from this devisive topic

 

[tony_montana]

@Deweyrules-I don't agree with torture under ANY circumstances, even if it's a terrorist who is being tortured. BUT, no matter what you or anyone else thinks, I believe we have the right to go after these terrorist bastards because of the thousands of people they killed on September 11. To me, they don't deserve a trial, they deserve to be hunted down and killed.

 

[Deweyrules!]

Of course what they did was absolutley disgusting and the complete lack of remorse is in fact disturbing, but trial is always needed, if not only to ensure you are correct in the people you convict. Surely the cause would be worsend for US if they were to create a martyr.

 

[NeCoHo]

I forgot to mention, declare war, then send in the operitives. Then it's fair game as long as civilians aren't killed, would you consider people like Saddam Huessain and his "cabinet" civilians?, I personally don't.

You do realize that there is probably a US base somewhere in the plateaus of China where the government hides stuff, right? I don't know about anyone else, but I know the US is very sneaky when it comes to hiding things, and providing dis-information.

and about the civil war thing- what could we do? after the special forces (let's say 10 men a group, at most) (and 50 groups total) that give us 500 men in Iraq total. how could 500 men protect against a complete civil war? unless they "act alone" as in the government saying they never authorized it, and these are mercinaries who went and did the job for someone. Then the big, ol' US Army and Allies come in and say, "Hey, let's work together now" The US could have been seen as peace bringers, and the protectors of the people while the big-wigs firght it out, and not seen as invasioners who took over the country and are now having a hell of a time putting back together because of that.

That idea is plausible, but would inviolve a lot of government secret-doing...

 

[Alfista Junior]

I agree with what J. said on his previous posts.

The main issue is that the US have justified the War in Iraq in making people believe it was directly linked to the 9/11 attack, which is wrong.

Bin Laden was responsible, he was in Alfghanistan. So allies have decided to help the US to capture him. By the way, that why French soldiers were sent to Alghanistan. (We nowadays know that Bush was more willing to know where the Bin Laden family was.. )

And suddently, we've heard about Iraq. Iraq, why Iraq? In Europe, we've said: okay, Iraq, why not, Saddam is a threat for Iraqi people. Right, we have to help them, even if a major part of their population still supports Saddam. So let's work with the UN (United Nations for those who've forgotten what it is.. ). The US claimed Iraq was a threat for them, and they have to hurry up. Have we miss something?
Actually, no. But it was sure we were liars and we didn't want to help the US to get rid of the sudden "MEGATHREAT"... We all said: "Allright if you want, we are the BAD one". And Bush begun to find his so called allies, a group which brings together those who have no choice and those who have really no choice to say no.
SO, let'sssssss fight!

Let's remind you that this operation supposed to free the Iraqi people has mostly kill them (No I forgot, the aim was to pick up the Weapons of Mass Destruction). When you really want to get rid of a group of people you don't rase entire cities...The War in Iraq has become a kind of giant advertisment for US people which said "Folks, listen, we are going to make your life safer, we're are killing the enemies, so give Baby Bush a giant hug!"

Yep, Bush is a "War President", as he said with a beautiful smile on TV. Yeah as if war was..great..

I live in Normandy, all the cities were destroyed at 80 or 90% during the WWII: even if I'm just 21, I can tell you that when I walked down the main street of my city I can't forget that there's only two or three old houses reamaining from the time before the war. It's like a scar in the landscap.
But I agree war is sometimes the only one option: when the country is INVADED for example. In this case, it was. And we were asking for help because we were near from the cliff.

Hopefully, we haven't thank the US the same way the Iraqi people did. And, why? Just think about it..

@Deweyrules-I don't agree with torture under ANY circumstances, even if it's a terrorist who is being tortured. BUT, no matter what you or anyone else thinks, I believe we have the right to go after these terrorist bastards because of the thousands of people they killed on September 11. To me, they don't deserve a trial, they deserve to be hunted down and killed.

This war has developed in Iraq anti-US feelings. So, Zarqawi who was already killing Iraqi people, has renamed his group 'Al qaida in Iraq' after the US invasion. The guy is nowadays dead, and it's good, but at the begining he had nothing to do with Bin laden. But this guy has killed innocent people and he deserved what happened. But we don't have to forget the whole story ...Zarqawi is not involved in 9/11.


Just a last thing:
During the WWII two brothers of my grandmother were executed in public place because they have destroyed a train which was supposed to bring, few hours later, Jewish people to "Concentration Camps".
On the record their mother received, it was written 'responsible for terrorist acts against nation'.
It was during occupation. Those "terrorists" are nowadays called 'résistants" and those who survived were decorated.

I absolutely don't want to justify the attacks which have killed people in Iraq. I really don't. The situation is different. But nothing is totally bad or totally good. The truth is never owned by a guy. It's just to say there are always different way to see events. Be carefully not to be fooled...
Think about it...