Extinction

Malcolm

New member
People is already saying that some day, humans will be able to live in Mars or other planets.
Some people even think humans will even visit other Galaxies. But I disagree with that for several reasons.
The first and most important is that we will not last forever. No species can avoid extinction.

Scientists think that most species (not all of them, but most), have a lifespan of about one million years. After that time, the entire species dissapears or becomes into another species, a more evolved one.

Until recently, scientists believed that humans were a much younger species, with only about 30,000 years in Earth.
Now we know that humans have been in Earth about a million years. New human fossil remains have confirmed this. So, we are already OLD as a species.
We will probably last a little more than other species because of the technology, and medical advances and things like that, but the reality is that our time is coming.

So, the question is, how will extinction hit humans?

I think it will be the climate change. Lots of species were killed by climate change 10.000 years ago, including the Irish Elk, the Mammoth and probably even the Neanderthal Man. So, it could easily kill us.
A new Ice Age would kill the entire population of the northern countries, and even if people escapes to the south, the glaciation will cause giant storms, that would also alterate the climate in the Southern Hemisphere and probably kill millions of humans.
Probably, the very last humans will die of flu...:D Anyway, the truth is that humans will become extinct.
But how exactly? And what animals will take over the world then?

Im interested in your opinions!:)
 

MITM18

New member
Humans will live on, there is no doubt about that.

We are better than any species, so the whole concept that no species has ever escaped extinction doesnt even apply to us.

Just compare us with animals.
 

yardgames

Retired Administrator
MITM18 has a point. There has never been a dominant species ruling earth that is intelligent before, and that's the key. We're smart enough to work together and help to prevent those types of things.

At this point, I think another ice age is out of the question. Global warming has gotten so bad that I don't see how it's possible. If it's climate that kill us off, it will be the other way around.
 

Emrysgirl

New member
I don't think climatic/natural disasters pose that much of a threat to humans as a species. To life in general, yes, but not humans specifically. Species are generally killed of by such things because they are not adapted to it. But, with technology, humans are, or will be, better or just as equiped as any other species in any way. Also, humans are a lot more spread out tha any other species has ever been. The only way humans will die out is if everything, or almost everything else does.

Malcolm said:
Until recently, scientists believed that humans were a much younger species, with only about 30,000 years in Earth.
Now we know that humans have been in Earth about a million years. New human fossil remains have confirmed this.
I very much doubt this, but I don't know. I'll check and get back to you.

Malcolm said:
Scientists think that most species (not all of them, but most), have a lifespan of about one million years.
Yes, but the reasons for dying out are generally predators and climate. Neither of which pose a threat to humans specifically.

Malcolm said:
After that time, the entire species dissapears or becomes into another species, a more evolved one.
That's possible. Again, one has to consider that natural selection plays a much smaller role these days. But evolution is weird. And I don't entirely "get" punctuated equilibrium. So, I assume it's possible. But evolving into something lse is quite different from dying out. It isn't nearly as bleak. In fact, it's not bleak at all.
 

NeCoHo

Retired Mod
Malcolm said:
People is already saying that some day, humans will be able to live in Mars or other planets.
Some people even think humans will even visit other Galaxies.

After that time, the entire species dissapears or becomes into another species, a more evolved one.
(First part of quote): I am one of those people. We will, end of story.

(second part of quote): Humans are a species that adapt and change with world around us. Maybe we are going through that whole cycle of evolving and changing, it is a infinate year cycle. How can one people live in a cold climate, yet others in a warm one? We are all geneticly the same, homo sapien. we all are humans, there are no aliens in the cold areas of the world, and humans in the warm. (except the Dropa, they live in the caves of west China) We are evolving as I write this. We are adapting to a new world every second. we have been doing it for a million years, or 30,000 years, it all depends when you draw the line of when humans came to exist. But the change is made so slowly, we hardly notice it. our air is poisioned, it is bad, all the stuff that isn't oxygen. We can breathe it, can't we? more methene, sulfur and all the other bad stuff is released in the air every day. e still live, even if those are bad for humans. Slowly, we will turn to "everything but oxygen" breathers instead of "oxygen" breathers. Anyone see my point?
 

yardgames

Retired Administrator
J, the fact is that there's still enough oxygen for us to breath; we can't just stop breathing oxygen--it doesn't work that way.

Emrysgirl, punctuated equilibrium is a very rapid change (less than 100 years) in a species. Basically, an example of punctuated equilibrium would be that a giraffe had to reach up for its food, so it reached and reached and stretched its neck and eventually its neck got just a little bit longer and over the next two or three generations the same thing happens until giraffes have longer necks.
 

NeCoHo

Retired Mod
yardgames said:
J, the fact is that there's still enough oxygen for us to breath; we can't just stop breathing oxygen--it doesn't work that way.
I know that, it was a bad example. I was trying to say that humans can adapt to anything. What I said, could happen slowly, very slowly over thousands of years.
 

admin

Retired Administrator
As basically all humans survive and repoduce now days, it is fair to say that we have basically stopped evolving phyiscally.

Evolution is about surivial of the fittest. The graiffe example, although partly correct, missed out the point that small giraffe simply died because they couldn't get enough food, therefore large giraffe breaded with large graiffe to get large giraffe, if they bread and got a little one, it would probably die of lack of food. After time the gene for "small" neck got almost eradicated from the giraffe population

Humans now adapt their own enviroment, they don't adapt to it. When it is cold we do not migrate south or grow a layer of flubber we simply turn the heating on, if we didn't do that we would die because we haven't evolved to life in some of the conditions we actually live in.

It would take billions of years to stop breathing oxygen because every single cell in our body has adapted to that way, we have entire organs adapted with the sole purpose of breathing in, and a blood stream designed to uptake oxygen in haemogobin. The amount of our body that would have to be changed would be too huge a task to be done. What happens if you gradually reduce oxygen in the air, we simply produce more red blood cells, a large lung capacitiy, stronger heart, we don't start adapting to breathe in Nitrogen on anyting.

Anyway am sure there was a point to this rant :D

Ice Age would not kill us all, it may kill some of us, especially those unprotected, but we could simply mass migrate. An ice age doesn't happen over night. It will happen over tens, hundreds of years. We aren't going to sit in our comfty northern houses and wait for it to happen if we know its coming.
 

Malcolm

New member
admin said:
As basically all humans survive and repoduce now days, it is fair to say that we have basically stopped evolving phyiscally.
I disagree. Evolution never stops. As J. said, it is a very slow process most of the time. But remember, evolution is not ONLY about natural selection and adaptation, it is also about mutation. I dont wanna sound like the X-Men narrator, but this is a very important and sometimes underestimated evolutive factor.
The truth is that humans are evolving. Im not scientist, so I dont know what would people become into if given the change.

But, guys, remember, even with our technology and that kind of advances, we are not Nature. And Nature still runs the world.
The South East tsunami was only a little example of what nature forces can do. And we are HELPING nature to destroy us.
Everyone has heard about the global warming (and YES, global warming could bring a new Ice Age, believe it or not), deforestation, etc etc etc.

Someone said something about comparing humans with animals. I agree we are not the same, but we are still animals. If we are not, what are we? Plants? Minerals? You tell me.
I dont wanna earn enemies by saying this, but we need to be more humble and recognize we are not allmighty.

Anyway, as I said, Im not trying to insult anyone. This is just my opinion, thats all.
 

Emrysgirl

New member
admin said:
As basically all humans survive and repoduce now days, it is fair to say that we have basically stopped evolving phyiscally.
That's why I was hesitant. But to SOME extent, natural and sexual selection still take place. For example, diseases such as hemophelia. And I think to say that NO physical changes are occuring is wrong. There have been and continue to be changes because of racial/cultural mixing. Genes that have been isolated to or non-existant in specific areas are being spread. The changes so far have been negligable. Which is why I was thinking of punctuated equilibrium.

admin said:
Evolution is about surivial of the fittest. The graiffe example, although partly correct, missed out the point that small giraffe simply died because they couldn't get enough food, therefore large giraffe breaded with large graiffe to get large giraffe, if they bread and got a little one, it would probably die of lack of food. After time the gene for "small" neck got almost eradicated from the giraffe population
I was just going to type that:D! The giraffe neck is one of the classic examples of misconceptions in culture about evolution. Another one is that penguins don't have large wings b/c they don't need to fly:D. Actually, it's more that anything with large wings would have died.

I know what punctuated equilibrium is: rapid change followed by very little change. I just don't get why/how it occurs. I mean, why all at once instead of slowly? I suppose it has something to do with a chain reaction. But, it's not a subject I know really well. I don't think anybody does. It is a fairly recent idea.

admin said:
Humans now adapt their own enviroment, they don't adapt to it. When it is cold we do not migrate south or grow a layer of flubber we simply turn the heating on, if we didn't do that we would die because we haven't evolved to life in some of the conditions we actually live in.
That's why I said natural selection plays a less important role now. But in natural selection in the form of mutations and sexual selection still have to be considered. Lethal mutations are kept out by natural selection. And since mutations can't really be predicted, you can't really predict evolution or the lack of it either.

Sexual selection may not focus on survival skills anymore, but it still exists. As much as we deny it, looks do matter. Agreed, they're not the only thing that matters. Anyone heard of behavioral evolution?(I'm not sure what I think of it.) And, maybe its just more subtle.

What I'm not sure about is if tese changes are enough to evolve into another species.

admin said:
Ice Age would not kill us all, it may kill some of us, especially those unprotected, but we could simply mass migrate. An ice age doesn't happen over night. It will happen over tens, hundreds of years. We aren't going to sit in our comfty northern houses and wait for it to happen if we know its coming.
Yeah, climatic stuff will probably wipe out most other life before it kills us off. In which case we're not really talking about one species evolving. And, we're back the same doomsday scenario as the Mars thing.
 

yardgames

Retired Administrator
Malcolm said:
I disagree. Evolution never stops. As J. said, it is a very slow process most of the time. But remember, evolution is not ONLY about natural selection and adaptation, it is also about mutation. I dont wanna sound like the X-Men narrator, but this is a very important and sometimes underestimated evolutive factor.
The truth is that humans are evolving. Im not scientist, so I dont know what would people become into if given the change.

But, guys, remember, even with our technology and that kind of advances, we are not Nature. And Nature still runs the world.
The South East tsunami was only a little example of what nature forces can do. And we are HELPING nature to destroy us.
Everyone has heard about the global warming (and YES, global warming could bring a new Ice Age, believe it or not), deforestation, etc etc etc.

Someone said something about comparing humans with animals. I agree we are not the same, but we are still animals. If we are not, what are we? Plants? Minerals? You tell me.
I dont wanna earn enemies by saying this, but we need to be more humble and recognize we are not allmighty.

Anyway, as I said, Im not trying to insult anyone. This is just my opinion, thats all.
Humans:
Kingdom Animalia
Phylum Chordata
Class Mamalia
Order Primate
Family Hominidae
Genus Homo
Species Sapien
 

Malcolm

New member
Actually, the taxonomic class is spelled mammalia, and the species is spelled sapiens (with a "s" at the end). ;)
 

arach

New member
Malcolm said:
The first and most important is that we will not last forever. No species can avoid extinction.
Not true.
Can't think of any?
What about sharks? (400 million years old...) Or Jellyfish? (670 million years old...)

Until recently, scientists believed that humans were a much younger species, with only about 30,000 years in Earth.
What do you mean with humans there? Homo Sapiens?
Now we know that humans have been in Earth about a million years. New human fossil remains have confirmed this. So, we are already OLD as a species.
?

We will probably last a little more than other species because of the technology, and medical advances and things like that, but the reality is that our time is coming.
LOL! Our Biological time hasn't come at all.

First we will expand till the natural resources are exhausted, then many will die, till the resources grow back again and the growth rate oscillates at a certain rate. There will be as many humans as nature can provide for.

A natural growth rate of a species.



So, the question is, how will extinction hit humans?

I think it will be the climate change. Lots of species were killed by climate change 10.000 years ago, including the Irish Elk, the Mammoth and probably even the Neanderthal Man. So, it could easily kill us.
A new Ice Age would kill the entire population of the northern countries, and even if people escapes to the south, the glaciation will cause giant storms, that would also alterate the climate in the Southern Hemisphere and probably kill millions of humans.
Probably, the very last humans will die of flu...:D Anyway, the truth is that humans will become extinct.
But how exactly? And what animals will take over the world then?

Im interested in your opinions!:)
First of all: You shouldn't believe what those movies like "The Day After Tomorrow" tell you. (I have seen the movie and I assume thats where you have all the "north and south and storms" stuff from)
Climate never changes over night. Such dramatic climate changes would need thousands of years at least.
Secondly, Homo Sapiens would not die because of another Ice Age. As I already pointed out, we survived one (the one that ended 10.000 years ago, remember?). We now also have the technology to build bunkers and knit blankets if it's too cold for us. ;) etc etc...
And even if there would be a natural disaster in an enourmous way, and it would kill millions of people, it would surely be a tragic coincidence, but humans will live on. There are thousand millions of us, all over the planet. And that brings me to the only two possibilities how humans could be extinct:


Nuclear overkill
Asteroid crashes into earth

All that long-lasting stuff like climatic change can be prevented. We are not THAT stupid.
 

yardgames

Retired Administrator
Anything that ruins our computer network can kill us. We have technology, as has been pointed out. But we've become too dependent on the technology and without it we will die.
 

arach

New member
yardgames said:
Anything that ruins our computer network can kill us. We have technology, as has been pointed out. But we've become too dependent on the technology and without it we will die.
We would just sleep in caves and hunt our food again. :D
 

Emrysgirl

New member
yardgames said:
Anything that ruins our computer network can kill us. We have technology, as has been pointed out. But we've become too dependent on the technology and without it we will die.
Maybe in the US, and other developed countries. But there's many places in the world where the general population has little or no contact with computers. Indirrectly, yes. But not in a way crucial to survival.
 

Malcolm

New member
Arach: if we try to live as cavemen again, we will die soon. Most large animals are endangered. We would have to hunt rats and mice and probably even dogs, but if we try, lets say, hunting bison or moose or things like that... there is simply not enough wildlife anymore, specially if the Ice Age strikes.

You are right; sharks, jellyfish, they are very ancient GROUPS of animals. But they are not species. Most shark and jellyfish species are now extinct, and the ones we can see in the sea now they are very similar but not the same.
For example, do you know what a Megalodon is? Or a Stethacanthus? Those and many more are species of sharks that lived millions of years ago. It is a mistake to believe that sharks swimming today are the same species as the ones that lived in the Age of the Dinosaurs.
And I dont know a lot about jellyfish, but anyway, those are a GROUP of animals as well, not species.
And I was talking about species.

I owe you all an apologize about the million year ago thing. I was wrong. The one that appeared a million years ago was Homo antecesor, not sapiens. Nobody is perfect:eek: But that means we still have a little more time... if we dont kill ourselves before.

I never saw that movie you say:confused: Anyway, I was reading about the climatic change and the storms in a scientist's paper about global warming.
And I've read it in some other books.

Anyway, Im starting to get tired of this thread. Anyway, we will never know... until it happens.

So, sorry if I offended anyone... SPARE MY LIFE!!;)
 

arach

New member
We would not die out if we live as caveman again. Even if millions of people die, there are still some who would survive because they are intelligent and skillful enough to hunt. Many would starve, I can imagine that, but not the whole mankind.

And one has to be careful using the "species" term, I know. Of course the jellyfish we see now are different from those which lived millions of years ago. But those didn't die out, they evolved into the today known species. Some species that evolved did die out, that's true, but some survived, evolved into new ones... that's why there is such a diversity of jellyfish species nowadays. Same with Homo Sapiens. The Australopiticus (which is the commonly known ancestor of Homo Sapiens) wasn't the first Human Species. Before that were the Dryopitecines (ancestor of all primates and apes and humans), and before that was something again and before that something again.
That's simply the process of evolution. Has nothing to do with extinction. We will evolve again, but we will not notice; it's a continuing, very very slow process, but in 50 million years we will differ from h. sapiens of today's world and somebody will say that our time as a species has come.

Simply my opinion. I just don't think that as the dominating species on earth we are one step away from extinction. Except a nuclear overkill or a huge asteroid is coming to get us. And most likely we would even survive that.
 
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